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You are Here: EMCrit.org » podcasts » EMCrit Podcast 1-Sympathetic Crashing Acute Pulmonary Edema

EMCrit Podcast 1-Sympathetic Crashing Acute Pulmonary Edema

by emcrit on April 25, 2009

Here it is, the 1st EMCrit podcast.

It’s on the topic of Sympathetic Crashing Acute Pulmonary Edema (SCAPE).

To boil it down to 10 seconds:

  • Start patient on Non-invasive ventilation with a PEEP of 6-8; quickly titrate to a PEEP of 10-12.
  • Start the patient on a nitroglycerin drip. Administer a loading dose of 4oo mcg/min for 2 minutes (120 ml/hour on the pump for 2 minutes with the standard nitro concentration of 200 mcg/ml.) Then drop the dose to 100 mcg/min and titrate it up from there as needed.

By 10 minutes, your patient should be out of the water.

See crashingpatient.com for the references.

 

Here is some info from a handout from a lecture I gave on the topic:

High Dose Nitroglycerin

Homeopathic nitroglycerin does not work so well
Start at 50-100 mcg/min, you can rapidly titrate to 200-400 mcg/min.

You must stand at the bedside to use these doses.
Need >120 mcg/min to get sig decreased Pulm Cap Wedge Pressure (Am J Cardio 2004;93:237)
But even this strategy is not as effective as the …
Nitro Bolus First
Can give 400-800 mcg over 1-2 minutes = 400 mcg/min for 1-2 minutes. (Annals EM 1997, 30:382)
How to do it
Standard nitro mix is 200 mcg/ml.
VERIFY YOUR HOSPITAL’S MIX BEFORE USING THESE RECS
In order to give the 400 mcg/min for 2 minutes, set the pump to
Rate: 120 cc/hr
Volume to be Infused: 4 ml (This will deliver 400 mcg/min for 2 minutes and then stop)

Or

Draw up 4 ml of the nitro and 6 ml of NS and give over 2 minutes

After the bolus, I drop the drip to 100 mcg/min and titrate up from there to effect
When the patient gets better, you need to sharply decrease this drip rate
Some folks have gone even further
High dose nitroglycerin for severe decompensated heart failure—2 mg at a time (Ann Emerg Med 2007;50:144)
Cotter gave isosorbide 3 mg q 5 minutes with good results in his study. This is equivalent to nitro 600 mcg/min. (Lancet 1998 351:9100, 389-393)

 

play audio EMCrit Podcast 1 Sympathetic Crashing Acute Pulmonary Edema

Related posts:

  1. EMCrit Podcast 0 – The Intro

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{ 30 comments… read them below or add one }

seth May 3, 2009 at 19:45

can you continue to keep the files under 10mb? that way you don’t need wifi to download directly to an iphone.

thanks-
seth

Reply

emcrit May 3, 2009 at 19:52

no problem for the audio, when we post videos, won’t be possible.

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DL September 20, 2009 at 12:19

Had an iatrogenic case of pulmonary edema the other day, pt with ESRD on HD; had a CTA, on the way back developed severe dyspnea, had very wet lungs and high BPs. Apparently happens commonly due to the high osmolarity of the contrast.

Slapped the bipap on while we were getting the NTG drip set up, clinically improved and bought us time to set up the drip. Within about 2-5 minutes he felt much better. Worked great!

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emcrit September 20, 2009 at 12:26

Dan, that’s excellent!

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jim September 25, 2009 at 19:02

Have you seen any cases where the BP has fallen precipitously with the use of the 400 mcg/min x 2 minutes of nitroglyerine? What is the half-life of iv nitroglycerine?

Thanks,

Jim Squires
Canada

Reply

emcrit September 26, 2009 at 03:26

1/2 life of nitro is between 1-4 minutes so even if they drop it won’t be for long
I have never seen a precipitous drop of of their pressure at the beginning of treatment when you are giving the bolus.
They often drop as they are resolving, which is a function of underlying dehydration.
If they did drop at the beginning, it should respond to a small fluid bolus.

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phil October 17, 2009 at 06:06

Correct me if I’m wrong, but 400 mcg is the dose of a slntg. We regularly give three of those in a row, with the same BP precautions.

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jim October 17, 2009 at 10:06

You’re correct but what is the bioavailability of sl nitro compared to IV??

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emcrit October 19, 2009 at 01:21

Bioavailability is pretty near IV b/v sublingual route avoids liver metabolism on first pass. 400 mcg of SL nitro is designed to be absorbed over 5 minutes so the dose is acutally ~80 mcg/min. THis is however predicated on having spit in your mouth. Most of these bad scape patients have bone dry mouths and don’t absorb the pills well.

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phil October 17, 2009 at 06:07

Scott – the early management of SCAPE patients is BIPAP and NITRO – at what point do you start diuresing these patients?

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emcrit October 19, 2009 at 01:22

When they are comfortable and the blood pressure is where you want, observe intravascular status. Then consider fixing it, usually the answer is they need fluid, not diuresis

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Brian Hawkins January 4, 2010 at 23:40

What about natrecor? I know it got bad press from its mortality statistics and it was overmarketed but I felt clinically that I have had good success in the past in particular in a crashing patient

Reply

emcrit January 5, 2010 at 01:36

Brian,

Thanks for writing.

The data that have emerged in the past few years seems to indicate an increased risk of mortality when compared to standard care. In the reported trials, this seemed to be just a trend, but then two additional deaths seem not to have been reported in the natrecor group, which if you recalculate the p-values is actually a stat. sig. increased mortality.

Even the original trial published in JAMA 2002 did not seem to have any clinically important effects when compared to minimal dose nitrites.

I have found aggressive doses of nitrites to be the quickest and most effective way to go, but there are many ways to skin this cat.

–Scott

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Jose D. Torres, Jr. January 11, 2010 at 18:52

I wonder if I only use bipap and high dose nitro, will the cxr change remarkably? I know the patients I take care get better, usually gets hits with iv nitro, not as high as you have recommended , instead at 50-100mcg/min and bipap, and lasix, double the patient’s daily use in iv form. I did once forget to give iv lasix, and more than 1.5 liter came out of the patient and he wanted to know if he could go home after 3 hrs of treatment. I know we usually diurese too much and leave them dehydrated/volume depleted.

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emcrit January 11, 2010 at 19:03

Jose,

Thanks for writing. In SCAPE patients, ALL of the chest x-ray findings are from too much afterload. X-ray will improve entirely if you vasodilate and give NIV. And, the patients will diurese as soon as you perfuse the kidneys.

scott

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Medora Pashmakova (DVM) January 14, 2010 at 22:24

Found it very interesting that you recommended Dexdomitor for sedation as ideal in these patients – if you’re fighting afterload, won’t the peripheral vasoconstriction caused by dexdomitor be detrimental? I’m an ER veterinarian and a recent follower of the program and podcasts. Thanks!

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emcrit January 16, 2010 at 17:57

Medora,

Great to have a vet. listener! I think you are talking about the possible initial elevation of pulse and blood pressure at the very start of a dexmedetomidine infusion, yes? If so, I have not witnessed this in clinical practice in these patients, probably b/c they are already experiencing great sympathetic stimulation and I have potent vasodilators infusing. What has been you experience in 4-legged patients?

scott

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Medora Pashmakova (DVM) January 23, 2010 at 21:33

Scott,
We see relatively profound bradycardia. Maybe due to the nature of how we use this drug (sometimes for chemical restraint, at doses of 10-15 mcg/kg IV) and also for sedation of instrumented patients (at CRI of 1-2 mcg/kg/hr) we see heart rates in the 40′s. With the higher doses the peripheral vasoconstriction is very significant (mucous membranes turn white initially) and I imagine the reflex bradycardia can only support the increased afterload and initial hypertension. I do like this drug a lot and we can perform minimal surgical procedures (i.e. laceration repairs) with this alone. My preferred recipe is Dexdomitor + a pure mu agonist + a local block. I have not measured initial blood pressure after administration – I suspect a direct arterial line would be the most accurate way to monitor hemodynamic effects. Interesting exchange of info, thanks!

Medora

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A Dabz January 16, 2010 at 14:21

I can’t tell you how many cases of SCAPE we see at my program in the Bronx. Gonna pitch the afterload reduction dose of NTG to my attendings, see how they react.

Enjoyed the lecture this past week at Mt. Sinai. EMCrit all the way.

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emcrit January 16, 2010 at 16:41

Thanks so much for your kind comments. I’m going to have to get permission from one of patients to video the change from arrival to 15 minutes later, because in this case seeing is believing.

Scott

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A Dabz January 16, 2010 at 19:28

We typically slap on the bipap, get the drip going (albiet at lower dosages) and see the improvement, although I wonder how many intubations/ICU admissions we’d mitigate. BTW, where’s the data? Any upcoming studies?

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Pik November 18, 2010 at 18:00

Excellent data that high dose IV NTG prevents intubation and mortality, and the rapid turnaround clinically is the rule, not the exception. Getting people to stop giving Lasix is the challenge. As has been mentioned above, as soon as the kidney gets fed, pee appears- but if you gave Lasix, then the drug gets the credit…

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salman January 29, 2010 at 23:03

any place for ACE inhibitors in acute management?

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emcrit January 30, 2010 at 02:02

Salman,

Thanks for commenting. I used to give them up front, but now I get them stabilized and see where their blood pressure winds up. Sometimes, surprisingly they are low after the acute catecholamines fade. If they are still hypertensive, I then give the ACEI.

scott

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Rogue Medic September 28, 2010 at 06:24

Excellent podcast.

Why not try to get those of us in EMS to improve our care of these patients, too?

High-dose NTG and CPAP are also treatments that can be given by EMS. In some places, these are given by EMS.

With sublingual NTG we probably cannot give these patients too much to these patients.

We should be using NTG by IV in EMS. In Pennsylvania, NTG is an optional drug for 911 services.

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emcrit October 2, 2010 at 19:24

thanks so much for writing. I am a big fan of starting these protocols in the field as well. Just CPAP alone would do enormous things for these patients. High dose nitro may be tough, but SL nitro and SL or IV ACEI coupled with NIV would do incredible things for these patients by the time they hit the ED.

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Logos November 2, 2010 at 06:17

What is the difference between “SCAPE” and “CHF exacerbation”? They sound identical with sudden onset pulmonary edema and respiratory distress with crackles and hypertension on exam that is treated with large doses of nitroglycerin and BiPAP to rescue and prevent intubation.

Also in the recording it is mentioned that treatment is to reduce afterload, which I believe is backward (or perhaps I misheard). Since nitroglycerin is primarily a venodilator and BiPAP increases intrathoracic pressure both serve primarily to decrease pre-load. By decreasing preload you prevent pulmonary edema without decreasing cardiac output because the patient has “fallen off” the Starling curse and is not preload dependent.

Thanks for the podcasts, we need more medical podcasts like this for learning on the go.

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emcrit November 26, 2010 at 21:47

Hi Cameron,

CHF exac encompasses a wide variety of presentations including:
severe hypertension and acute pulmonary edema
peripheral edema with volume overload
low BP and pulmonary edema
and many mixed presentations

sympathetic-surge hypertensive APE is a situation of sharply increased afterload leading to LV failure and pulm edema. If the patient is going to get tubed in the next minutes without turnaround, then they are crashing. SCAPE is this patient

afterload reduction is all these patients need
they are not volume overloaded
they do not need preload reduction or diuresis.

sorry about the late reply, you message got lost in the ether.

scott

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John Holst December 16, 2010 at 15:13

New emcrit listener, excellent podcasts! Scott, in your very severe flash pulmonary edema patients with BPs of 300/150 (MAPs 200ish) do you follow strict 25% BP reduction with the Non-invasive ventilation/Nitro protocol or follow more of a clinical response or a combination?

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emcrit December 16, 2010 at 15:20

Hey John,

flash APE is by definition an acute condition, so you can take these pts all the way back to their normal BP almost immeditately. You’ll know they are there b/c they go from looking like death to sitting comfortably. So answer is I don’t worry about 25%.

scott

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