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12 Comments on "Episode 12 – New Trauma Guidelines: ATLS and Spine"

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Taylor
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Prevention of secondary injury in SCI is key. Many SCI are missed initially, and if you think they’re bleeding you *may* be tempted to not bump up their MAP to 90. If spinal shock, they should be bradycardic instead of tachycardic. And if spinal shock with no obvious bleeding, may not need blood products like you’ve mentioned in the podcast. I think you could give crystalloids and start pressors early, but this is if you suspect SCI and not hemorrhage.

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[…] Scott Weingart’s podcast on the new ATLS guidelines and new spinal cord injury […]

Minh Le Cong
Guest

just one point of terminology
spinal shock is not neurogenic shock, which is the correct trauma term in my opinion
spinal shock relates to loss of spinal cord reflexes in acute period of SCI, and these may recover with time.
Sorry. it isa pedantic point by one of my neurosurgical mentors.

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[…] Also Mr EmCrit just posted a new podcast on his Practical Evidence blog on new ATLS guidelines on spinal cord injury. […]

Ross Hofmeyr
Guest

Great ‘cast Scott. I (COI: ATLS instructor/course director) agree with your comments that ATLS is a foundation – we as specialists in our fields should certainly be aware of the more current directions…but equally aware of when current trends go awry!

Small correction: ETT cuff pressure should be less than 30 cmH20, not 30 mmHg (a little over 40cmH20). Fortunately, most pressure manometers are marked in cmH20 😉

emcrit
Guest

Ross,

If you asked me clinically, I would absolutely agree with you. 30 cmH2O is our cuff cut-off and the the peds studies cited actually used 20 cm H2O.

However the podcast was based on this document:
http://web15.facs.org/atls_cr/help/9th_Edition_Compendium_for_Update_FINAL.pdf
on the American College of Surgeons website.

So either their summary is incorrect or their rec is high in both of our minds.

Can you take a cell phone shot of anything they have written with the values you mention.

Mary Shue
Guest

Did they address therapeutic hypothermia (or relative hypothermia) in the acute sci guidelines?
Mary Shue
Emergency Department Pharmacist
University of Michigan Health System

emcrit
Guest

not yet recommended

Minh Le Cong
Guest

good point ROss. I did wonder about that mmHg reference too. OUr manometers read in cmH2O as well.

Brendon
Guest

Just a technical glitch – the link for the c-spine update directs to the stroke guidelines. Can it be redirected?
(Neurosurgery 2013;72(supplement 2):1-259 Guidelines for the Management of Acute Cervical Spine and Spinal Cord Injuries)

tony
Guest
re: cuff pressure discussion. the units are a bear here. there are mmHg and mmH2O and cmH2O in regular use in medicine. the 9e FACS ATLS changes doc seems a bit off, as suggested. of the two citations they gave for the 30mmHg sentence quoted above: the first had no mention of appropriate cuff pressures (that i could find) and the second was a prospective trial that used and suggested pressures <= 20cmH20 (equivalent to about 15mmHg, very roughly 1.5x smaller. 1 mmHg = 13.6 mmH2O = 1.36 cmH2O). A quick glance at some random online lit confirms 20-30cmH20 is normal for ET tubes (which is equivalent to ~15 – 22 mmHg) The manometers I have seen RTs use to measure cuff pressures (generally only in peds ICU, honestly) measure in cmH20. so do anesthesia machines, ventilators, CPAP machines, etc. Everything else I have ever seen measure body fluids and compartment pressures (invasive monitors, standard blood pressure monitors, stryker needles, etc) measures in mmHg. For folks who don't have access to respiratory manometers, just taking air out of the cuff with a syringe until you have a minimal reasonable leak pressure (say 15 or something? i forget) would be my… Read more »
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[…] Evidence Episode 12 – New Trauma Guidelines: ATLS & C-spine – Apr 13, […]

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