Cite this post as:
Scott Weingart, MD FCCM. Podcast 171 – OODA Loops. EMCrit Blog. Published on April 2, 2016. Accessed on June 5th 2023. Available at [https://emcrit.org/emcrit/ooda-loops/ ].
Financial Disclosures:
Dr. Scott Weingart, Course Director, reports no relevant financial relationships with ineligible companies.
This episode’s speaker(s), (listed above), report no relevant financial relationships with ineligible companies.
CME Review
Original Release: April 2, 2016
Date of Most Recent Review: Jan 1, 2022
Termination Date: Jan 1, 2025
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Awesome! Learned about Boyd and Mig Alley during Urban Combatives training – the approach resonated with our experiences training against street attacks……Boyd’s approach also explains something I’ve seen during the research we are doing using anesthetic checklists. Inexperienced resuscitators under stress sometimes jump to using the pre induction checklist which can block their opportunity to use system 1 and recognize the illness patterns. So far Ive called it “checklist bias”. The checklist behaves like a emotional shelter for the fear they experience, but unfortunately the shelter also prevents them from being open to the rain of observations that is falling… Read more »
Hey Scott! Or is it Maverick?
Great vodcast. I was fortunate to see this talk in Chicago and it was excellent however it seemed from the stage.
Great insight linking Crosskerry’s/Kahneman’s decision systems to the decision piece of Boyd’s loop.
John Boyd was an Air Force pilot not Navy. May be a small point but definitely important to some.
Cheers!
thanks Jim. Couldn’t see my notes–added a correction to the shownotes
Hey Scott, Great post as always. I was wondering about your thoughts on using FOAM as an educational tool for illness scripts. I started First10 because I wanted to become an expert resuscitationist, but I didn’t want to just wait for experience – I wanted to simulate it. As a result, I stumbled on this concept of mental practice. The blog and mental practice seem to work really well in creating action scripts, and I do think they have a value in that role, but as you say, the action is often not the difficult part of this loop –… Read more »
Dr. Weingart, I am a 30 year medic, and I have spent the past eleven of those years as a tertiary-care center affiliated flight paramedic. I am also a career fire service battalion chief. When I have free time, I fly airplanes as an instrument rated private pilot. I routinely preach Klein’s concepts of recognition-primed decision-making, and utilize the Shewhart Cycle to frame process improvement discussions. I would like to point out what I feel is ATLS’s positive contribution to a trauma resuscitation. I have taught BTLS/ITLS/ PHTLS for years and have audited ATLS numerous times. The restrictive framework does… Read more »
Hey Scott, thanks for the shout out for the ETM Course. Have been reading up heavily on Croskerry et al’s work recently and we are about to update ETM to specifically to incorporate activities that focus on clinical decision making. Due to demand from more experienced clinicians we are also looking at putting together an advanced version of ETM where we can delve deeper into this, with sicker patients to draw out some of the more complex issues around decision making. ETM is still in it’s infancy, this year we’re running courses around Australia and in New Zealand, we are… Read more »
JEFF WILLIAMS WRITES: Scott, Tried to post this under the comments for the OODA podcast but the internet ate my post, so I’ll try again in this format. I enjoyed that podcast and as always thought provoking. As a former airline pilot that has returned to medicine, I would like to throw in my $0.02 based on my observations and experiences in both fields. I’ll try to tie all of this together without War and Peace volume II. I’m sure most people realize that the airline industry is one of the most if not the most standardized, policies and procedures… Read more »
Thanks for this great post. Just listened to a keylime podcast questioning the role of metacognition in medical education: http://www.royalcollege.ca/rcsite/documents/canmeds/keylime-ep109-jf-zwaan-et-al-e.pdf
System 1 vs System 2 is a false dichotomy…
It all has to do with having mental models that gives a person the ability to use true understanding that gives the ability to use ‘active’ thinking very very fast…
In order to do this effectively the mental models needs to be designed from scratch, in the areas that matters.
Peter Fallenius
Peter,
the dichotomy is based on neurological anatomy, function and imaging. It is not a theoretical paradigm.