Cite this post as:
Scott Weingart, MD FCCM. Podcast # 51: Fibrinolysis in Pulmonary Embolism. EMCrit Blog. Published on July 11, 2011. Accessed on June 6th 2023. Available at [https://emcrit.org/emcrit/fibrinolysis-in-pulmonary-embolism/ ].
Dr. Scott Weingart, Course Director, reports no relevant financial relationships with ineligible companies.
This episode’s speaker(s), (listed above), report no relevant financial relationships with ineligible companies.
Original Release: July 11, 2011
Date of Most Recent Review: Jan 1, 2022
Termination Date: Jan 1, 2025
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How do you, and Dr Kline, if he’s out there, feel about lytics when the patient presents w/ syncope, in the absence of current hypotension or clinical shock?
Or even lytics during a cardiac arrest wiht a high index of suspision of PE? Such as a recent long bone fracture?
TROICA, which is what the AHA based their no-lytics in undifferentiated cardiac arrest stance on, excluded pts in whom the clinician had a strong suspicion for PE. So if you have a strong suspicion, then you should probably lyse.
I would probably ignore the syncope and just go with the signs of badness as the stand during your eval.
In patients with diagnosis of PE that are at arrest (non shockeable) and don’t get rythm back, can you use lytics during CPR?, You need to use infusion or bolus administration in the case that you don’t have tenecteplase ?
if you have already diagnosed PE and they arrest, definitely lyse unless contra-indications (and they would have to be pretty STRONG contra-indications). If you only have alteplase give all 100 mg as a push during arrest as per Dr. Kline.
Holy Crap Weingart/Kline! YGBFSM! OK, I’m only 15 minute in and already my head is going to explode! Lytics for pretty much any submassive PE without a good reason? I’ll give you a good reason, NO GOOD PUBLISHED DATA TO SUPPORT A MORTALITY BENEFIT AND A 1% CHANCE OF ICH! How’s that for a good reason? How bout the fact that Kline’s definition and the recommendations of AHA and everyone else doesn’t support that aggressive of treatment. Allright Rant over. Kline is probably right. I lyse these folks too. But I do it fully realizing that there is no solid… Read more »
For anyone not of the net generation, YGBFSM can’t be spelled out on my family oriented blog : ) I think Dr. Kline was fairly clear that he doesn’t have evidence of mortality benefit for submassive. Though he is actively engaged in creating it right now. I think until that comes out, you can tell your patient that their chance of being a cardiac cripple is dramatically decreased with lytics. I think even the 1% is an overestimation of the ICH risk given the data he presented, but I think it is a fair number to use for consent. Then… Read more »
d-dimer testing is an interest of mine and I’ve been unable to find conclusive evidence that d-dimer testing is warranted in pretest probability high risk patients. mainly, all of the studies I’ve found show that d-dimer is highly sensitive, but fail to achieve statistical significance because of insufficient power. Is there data to support Kline’s statement regarding d-dimer use in high risk patients? is my fear to use it based only on theoretical Bayesian analysis?
would like to know .. in a high risk pt for PE , would you send that pt home without CTPA if the high sensitive quantitative D dimer came back negative * and pt is not on anti coagulated and presents within 24 hrs of PE symptoms ?
i wouldn’t. seemingly Jeff Kline would. i would send an intermediate home in this circumstance.
Hi Dr. Weingart 🙂 Love your blog and your sense of humor! Cannot wait to hear you speak at the AllNYC conference next Wednesday! Anyway, I’m curious to know what you think about this one: 80yo patient hypotensive, tachycardic, and tachypneic, sats in mid 80s. History of cancer with mets s/p chemo. Also febrile and neutropenic. He was given tPA early for suspected PE; no d-dimers, no imaging or u/s, no other workup. The ICU team was raging that the ED team didn’t consider anything else in the differential of hypotension/tachypnea and that he wasn’t even blue in the face/at… Read more »
Dr Weingart LOVE your blog. Amazing stuff. I’m a EM resident in NYC area. Listened to this post this week (I’m a little behind). I dug around to find some of the references mentioned in the lecture and thought I would post the links:
The “old” PE studies showing high mortality:
MAPPET registry: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=9264496
The “newer” PE studies showing lower mortality:
HCUP: http://www.hcup-us.ahrq.gov/nisoverview.jsp (not really an article)
Also here is the AHA statement on PE. Figure 6 references these same studies: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/123/16/1788.full#content-block
PB-thanks for the grunt work and thanks for listening.
Had a moderate pre-test prob for a DVT, D-Dimer + but US negative pt who was therefore not anticoagulated throw a saddle emblous a week later. This has reminded me of ensuring follow-up US in a week or so in my moderate to high pre-test probs. What is your take on this? Jeff Kline’s?
Hi Scott-I’m a pgy3 EM resident starting to think about how I will choose to manage my patients next year without an attending safety net. I’ve been catching up on old episodes, great stuff as always. Like Josh above I would love it if Dr. Kline had a resource or reasoning for why he trusts D-Dimer in all risk levels. A quick bit of googling found me this
But does he have more info with a more inclusive pt group? Also, what elevated cutoff does he (or you) use in pregnancy? Citation?
So maybe I missed it in the lecture, but what was his advice regarding whether or not to give a heparin bolus before putting the patient on a gtt? Also, would you start them on the heparin and then give the tPA, or the other way round (or does it even matter)?
Dr. Kline gives lovenox simultaneously with tenecteplase
Can you provide the reference for D-dime level in pregnancy. What level is acceptable for each trimester. I know I have heard this on your site or EMRAP but need to educate myself as well as my OB!! Thanks.
Dan, no references as Dr. Kline has not published yet.
Enjoy the podcast! I am a hospitalist in a community hospital who enjoys interacting with the ED and ICU. I am often amused by the difference in the approach the two groups will take to the same critical patient.
Would you or Dr Kline thrombolyse an patient with a Cr of 2.4, precluding CT angio, with a high clinical suspicion of PE, hypoxia, elevated and rising troponin and significant RV dysfunction on ECHO?
can’t speak for Kline, but first I would do a bedside dvt ultrasound. If negative, I would prob. CT the pt anyway before lysing. If the pt started to drop their blood pressure and there were no contra-indications, I would start talking to the pt about blind lysis.
Hello, I am a hospitalist. Do you have a feeling on giving tpa to patients who already received lovenox before the diagnosis was confirmed only to then become unstable. I have done this one time mainly because my patient was dying and I had no other choices. She blew 4 intrabdominal hematomas but was discharged to home alive for Christmas. How do you handle that situation. We have lovenox and late please as our drugs. I had another case where my colleague planned to administer tpa to an unconfirmed case of pe. We stopped and completed the ct quick instead.… Read more »
Jeff gives lovenox simul. with tenecteplase so I would have no problem giving tenecteplase to these patients. I try to get imaging before giving the lytics in a patient who is not coding if at all possible, for just the reason you mention. If bedside dvt ultrasound is positive, then I think that is enough in the proper clinical scenario.
Give 100 mg during a cardiac arrest as a push? I agree but I wanted to make sure I read that right.
Would you give lyrics in patients with massive PE and pulmonary infarct?? I cannot seem to find any literature about this other than it is not listed as a current contra-indication
Kline says yes, I have not seen lit either
Hey Scott, Thought it would be a good time to revive this topic with 2 new trials out (TOPCOAT and PEITHO) IM/EM/CC doc here (finishing cc fellowship now). Enjoyed hearing Kline’s viewpoint, although based on the recently published TOPCOAT and PEITHO trials I disagree with them. I 100% believe lytics reduces RV dysfunction and pHTN in the long-term. However, nobody has been able to show this results in a patient-oriented benefit (improved quality of life). The topcoat trial looked promising but Kline terminated it early for logistical reasons so left this question largely unanswered. The PEITHO trial (in my opinion)… Read more »
waiting for the actual publications to come out to see the real data
I have a question about dosing. I have not found a clear consensus about dose to give. From what i understand, it is 50mg-100mg; but is this over 1 hour, 2 hour? Some say give 50 mg over 15 minutes and some give 100mg bolus. It’s confusing. Are the doses the same for ALL massive PE’s (cardiac arrest vs. non-arrest patients) or is there a difference?